"Alieni" in parish record

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Looking at baptisms in Bebington (Wirral, Cheshire, England), 1679.

Most - all, I think - of the other entries on the page are of the form:

<forename (nominative)> filius/filia <forename (genitive)> <surname> de
<place> ____ <date>

(forenames Latinised), which I of course understand to mean

<forename> son/daughter of <forename> <surname> of <place> ____ <date>.

However, the one I think are my ancestors says (under Mensis Augusti
[month of August]):

Johannes filius Johannis Mason Alieni <>____________________________3º.

Which I take to mean John son of John Mason (the <> is a little diamond,
which I take to be a foible of the scribe - it's done without taking the
pen off the page to draw the line to the date figure [handy, as it makes
it a lot easier to see which date lines up with which line]).

I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most of
the others on the page are "de Bebington" or "de Beb: super" (Higher or
Upper, I presume), but there are some from other villages - Watsheath or
Wats Heath, Stourton, Poulton, Brombrough, Hony-Greave, Hinderton,
Tranmore, and Holt Hill. Sure, one might guess the clerk didn't know,
but hang on: if you're having a baby son baptised (especially one named
after you, so quite likely the first one), it's not like just having
your passport stamped - it takes a while; surely someone would have
asked? (Would they even _do_ a baptism for a stranger?)

[Jenny M Benson]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Looking at baptisms in Bebington (Wirral, Cheshire, England), 1679.
<forename (nominative)> filius/filia <forename (genitive)> <surname> de
<place> ____ <date>
(forenames Latinised), which I of course understand to mean
<forename> son/daughter of <forename> <surname> of <place> ____ <date>.
However, the one I think are my ancestors says (under Mensis Augusti
Johannes filius Johannis Mason Alieni <>____________________________3º.
Which I take to mean John son of John Mason (the <> is a little diamond,
which I take to be a foible of the scribe - it's done without taking the
pen off the page to draw the line to the date figure [handy, as it makes
it a lot easier to see which date lines up with which line]).
I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most of
the others on the page are "de Bebington" or "de Beb: super" (Higher or
Upper, I presume), but there are some from other villages - Watsheath or
Wats Heath, Stourton, Poulton, Brombrough, Hony-Greave, Hinderton,
Tranmore, and Holt Hill. Sure, one might guess the clerk didn't know,
but hang on: if you're having a baby son baptised (especially one named
after you, so quite likely the first one), it's not like just having
your passport stamped - it takes a while; surely someone would have
asked? (Would they even _do_ a baptism for a stranger?)

Can't imagine a Priest refusing to baptise a child.

One of my ancestors was described in a Baptismal record, as "a poor
travelling man" so maybe John Mason was of no fixed abode and didn't
know himself where he was actually "from."

[Evertjan.]

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Looking at baptisms in Bebington (Wirral, Cheshire, England), 1679.
<forename (nominative)> filius/filia <forename (genitive)> <surname> de
<place> ____ <date>
(forenames Latinised), which I of course understand to mean
<forename> son/daughter of <forename> <surname> of <place> ____ <date>.
However, the one I think are my ancestors says (under Mensis Augusti
Johannes filius Johannis Mason Alieni <>____________________________3º.
Which I take to mean John son of John Mason (the <> is a little diamond,
which I take to be a foible of the scribe - it's done without taking the
pen off the page to draw the line to the date figure [handy, as it makes
it a lot easier to see which date lines up with which line]).
I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most of
the others on the page are "de Bebington" or "de Beb: super" (Higher or
Upper, I presume), but there are some from other villages - Watsheath or
Wats Heath, Stourton, Poulton, Brombrough, Hony-Greave, Hinderton,
Tranmore, and Holt Hill. Sure, one might guess the clerk didn't know,
but hang on: if you're having a baby son baptised (especially one named
after you, so quite likely the first one), it's not like just having
your passport stamped - it takes a while; surely someone would have
asked? (Would they even _do_ a baptism for a stranger?)

Can't imagine a Priest refusing to baptise a child.
One of my ancestors was described in a Baptismal record, as "a poor
travelling man" so maybe John Mason was of no fixed abode and didn't
know himself where he was actually "from."

Indeed.

Filius Johannis Mason Alieni = Son of the foreign Johannus Mason.

It here is the genitive of the adjective "alienus" [= foreign]

<https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/alienus>

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

[]

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
However, the one I think are my ancestors says (under Mensis Augusti
Johannes filius Johannis Mason Alieni
<>____________________________3º.

[]

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most

[]

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Greave, Hinderton, Tranmore, and Holt Hill. Sure, one might guess the
clerk didn't know, but hang on: if you're having a baby son baptised
(especially one named after you, so quite likely the first one), it's
not like just having your passport stamped - it takes a while; surely
someone would have asked? (Would they even _do_ a baptism for a stranger?)

Can't imagine a Priest refusing to baptise a child.

(There was a storyline in "The Indian Doctor" - set in the 1960s in a
Welsh mining village - where he refused until the father married the
mother. I thought it not too creditable at the time; it was part of a
storyline where the vicar was a baddie for a different reason. But I
could just about believe such a refusal if there was doubt whether the
father was being honest about some important detail.)

Post by Jenny M Benson
One of my ancestors was described in a Baptismal record, as "a poor
travelling man" so maybe John Mason was of no fixed abode and didn't
know himself where he was actually "from."

It's certainly possible JM was of no fixed abode, but then I'd have
expected something like your example; "Alieni" suggests something
definite.

Anyone else come across it, and if so what were the circumstances?

[Evertjan.]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Anyone else come across it, and if so what were the circumstances?

Pomps and circumstances?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
However, the one I think are my ancestors says (under Mensis Augusti
Johannes filius Johannis Mason Alieni <>____________________________3º.

[]

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most

[]

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Greave, Hinderton, Tranmore, and Holt Hill. Sure, one might guess the
clerk didn't know, but hang on: if you're having a baby son baptised
(especially one named after you, so quite likely the first one), it's
not like just having your passport stamped - it takes a while; surely
someone would have asked? (Would they even _do_ a baptism for a stranger?)

Can't imagine a Priest refusing to baptise a child.

(There was a storyline in "The Indian Doctor" - set in the 1960s in a
Welsh mining village - where he refused until the father married the
mother. I thought it not too creditable at the time; it was part of a
storyline where the vicar was a baddie for a different reason. But I
could just about believe such a refusal if there was doubt whether the
father was being honest about some important detail.)

Well, the local priest in Chile wasn't keen on baptising our daughter
because we were only going to be in Chile for another three weeks and
that wouldn't enough time to participate in six weekly get-togethers
with the other parents. However, he was won over when my wife,
nominally Roman Catholic, said that she was anxious for her to be
baptised in the Roman Catholic church (with emphasis on the "Roman
Catholic"). The priest, knowing that we lived in England and that I was
not Roman Catholic, had visions of the poor child being subjected to
some pagan ritual, decided that maybe it was not essential for us to
attend six weekly get-togethers.

(It was exactly the other way round with the British consulate, who
issued a passport in record time when they knew that our daughter had
come to Chile on a nasty foreign passport.)

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

Post by Jenny M Benson
One of my ancestors was described in a Baptismal record, as "a poor
travelling man" so maybe John Mason was of no fixed abode and didn't
know himself where he was actually "from."

It's certainly possible JM was of no fixed abode, but then I'd have
expected something like your example; "Alieni" suggests something
definite.
Anyone else come across it, and if so what were the circumstances?

[cecilia]

On Fri, 23 Oct 2020 12:03:07 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
<***@255soft.uk> wrote:
[...]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most of
the others on the page are "de Bebington" or "de Beb: super" (Higher or
Upper, I presume), but there are some from other villages - Watsheath or
Wats Heath, Stourton, Poulton, Brombrough, Hony-Greave, Hinderton,
Tranmore, and Holt Hill. Sure, one might guess the clerk didn't know,
but hang on: if you're having a baby son baptised (especially one named
after you, so quite likely the first one), it's not like just having
your passport stamped - it takes a while; surely someone would have
asked? (Would they even _do_ a baptism for a stranger?)

See http://users.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/glossary.html#foreigner

Within a parish,the chapelry, viillage, hamlet etc of the father.
could be useful identification.

If the father was from outside the local area, they might not have
cared where he came from - apart from making it clear that he / his
child were not local.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by cecilia
On Fri, 23 Oct 2020 12:03:07 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
[...]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most of

[]

Post by cecilia
See http://users.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/glossary.html#foreigner
Within a parish,the chapelry, viillage, hamlet etc of the father.
could be useful identification.
If the father was from outside the local area, they might not have
cared where he came from - apart from making it clear that he / his
child were not local.

OK. Looks like I have very little chance of tracing that line much
further back then (-:! [Mason not being that uncommon a name.]

[Steve Hayes]

On Fri, 23 Oct 2020 12:03:07 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I am pretty sure "Alieni" just means "of elsewhere" - but why? Most of
the others on the page are "de Bebington" or "de Beb: super" (Higher or
Upper, I presume), but there are some from other villages - Watsheath or
Wats Heath, Stourton, Poulton, Brombrough, Hony-Greave, Hinderton,
Tranmore, and Holt Hill. Sure, one might guess the clerk didn't know,
but hang on: if you're having a baby son baptised (especially one named
after you, so quite likely the first one), it's not like just having
your passport stamped - it takes a while; surely someone would have
asked? (Would they even _do_ a baptism for a stranger?)

Perhaps to ensure that if the parents became indigent the child would
not be a charge on the parish.

[Ian Goddard]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Johannes filius Johannis Mason Alieni <>____________________________3º.

I wonder if "mason" is to be taken literally. Masons could be
peripatetic. In leter times one can find the mason's family at one
address and, after some searching, the mason himself lodged some
distance away, presumably where there was a construction project.

One possibility, then, is that here was a mason travelling with his
family and, in absence of having taken note of his surname, given his
occupation as the surname.

Ian

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by Ian Goddard

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Johannes filius Johannis Mason Alieni <>____________________________3º.

I wonder if "mason" is to be taken literally. Masons could be
peripatetic. In leter times one can find the mason's family at one
address and, after some searching, the mason himself lodged some
distance away, presumably where there was a construction project.
One possibility, then, is that here was a mason travelling with his
family and, in absence of having taken note of his surname, given his
occupation as the surname.
Ian

Thanks. It's possible that he actually was a mason and thus peripatetic
as you describe back in 16xx, but I don't think so: certainly for all
his descendants, it was just a surname, not their profession. Most if
not all of the other baptisms on the page give what are clearly just the
father's surname, not profession. (I can't remember when surnames came
in as the norm, but I think well before this.)