Birth in Ostend c.1799

[Chris Dickinson]

Hi All,

I have, over the last 48 hours, been tracing a Liverpool ancestry that may have just placed me in Ostend - and I'm very much out of my depth here.

I have been using purely free online sources, and I'm not asking people to go beyond that (but, hey, you may if you wish!).

I have an irrefutable line to Richard Lloyd, a dentist (quite well-known in dental history) and his wife Isabella Hutton. They were married in Walton-on-the-Hill in modern day Liverpool in 1846, where her father is named as John Robert Hutton (he also has a son of that name, Isabella's brother).

All of the BMD events in this clan are basically Liverpool.

John Robert Hutton was married to Sarah Brogden. Their oldest recorded child, Sarah, was born 03-01-1816.

He is variously described in the marriages of his children and elsewhere as gentleman, commercial traveller, and traveller. His relations in the next generation are generally prosperous middle-class.

There is a John Robert Hutton in the 1851 Census who has recently married and is described as a commercial traveller and brewer. He has what looks like a new wife and son. There was a Sarah Hutton who died aged 58 in 1845, and a John Robert Hutton who married Ann Butters in 1850.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGYX-B9Y

As you will notice, however, this John Robert Hunter (whom I'm assuming is the same man) is described as born in Ostend. Can anyone help in pointing me to how I can research this, or even do the research for me?! I'm not optimistic about what I've found on records in this era and area.

Thank you,
Chris

[Chris Dickinson]

Post by Chris Dickinson
Hi All,
I have, over the last 48 hours, been tracing a Liverpool ancestry that may have just placed me in Ostend - and I'm very much out of my depth here.
I have been using purely free online sources, and I'm not asking people to go beyond that (but, hey, you may if you wish!).
I have an irrefutable line to Richard Lloyd, a dentist (quite well-known in dental history) and his wife Isabella Hutton. They were married in Walton-on-the-Hill in modern day Liverpool in 1846, where her father is named as John Robert Hutton (he also has a son of that name, Isabella's brother).
All of the BMD events in this clan are basically Liverpool.
John Robert Hutton was married to Sarah Brogden. Their oldest recorded child, Sarah, was born 03-01-1816.
He is variously described in the marriages of his children and elsewhere as gentleman, commercial traveller, and traveller. His relations in the next generation are generally prosperous middle-class.
There is a John Robert Hutton in the 1851 Census who has recently married and is described as a commercial traveller and brewer. He has what looks like a new wife and son. There was a Sarah Hutton who died aged 58 in 1845, and a John Robert Hutton who married Ann Butters in 1850.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGYX-B9Y
As you will notice, however, this John Robert Hunter (whom I'm assuming is the same man) is described as born in Ostend. Can anyone help in pointing me to how I can research this, or even do the research for me?! I'm not optimistic about what I've found on records in this era and area.
Thank you,
Chris

Hsving chewed over this during my evening meal, I'm inclined to doubt the c.1799 date, whatever may be in the Family Search extract.

First, c.1799 is a bit tight (though certainly not impossible) for a child to be born in 1816 (birth as well as baptism).

Second,if the Sarah who died in 1845 aged 58 is his first wife, then she would have been 12 years older than him (by the way, her last child would have been born in 1826 - which is close on 40).

Third, if he were courting a much younger wife (and had the charm/looks of a smooth-talking commercial traveller) then he might well have declared a younger age (and got away with it).

So the Ostend birth could have been back to the late 1780s, more likely the early 1790s. Sorry to be misleading.

Chris

[Martin Beavis]

Post by Chris Dickinson
So the Ostend birth could have been back to the late 1780s, more likely the early 1790s. Sorry to be misleading.

Chris - You may be right about an earlier date of birth in the early 1790s. The excellent free Lancashire OPC site
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/index.html
has an unpromising 1821 transcription
Baptism: 26 Jul 1821 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Robert Hutton - [Child] of John Hutton & Sally
Abode: Scotland Rd
Occupation: Merchant
Baptised by: T. H. Heathcote Curate
Register: Baptisms 1821 - 1822, Page 45, Entry 360
Source: LDS Film 1656418
BUT Ancestry(£) has this same baptism with an image reading:
Liverpool, St Peter, Baptised 26 July 1821, BORN 31 October 1793, John Robert, son of John [Robert deleted] and Sa??y [overwritten as Sally] HUTTON, abode Scotland Road, father Merchant
I believe FMP has also recently uploaded Lancashire PRs.

So why was he baptised 28 years after birth? Might he have been unbaptised by default if his father had been a Liverpool merchant based in Ostend? Might he have been baptised prior to his marriage? If indeed the Ostend man really is your man.

BTW, where do you think Ostend was at that time? We know it as being in Belgium today but Ancestry recognizes it as Ostende, Ennepe-Ruhr-Kreis, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany, so beware of looking only in Belgium.

Good luck - Martin Beavis

[Chris Dickinson]

Post by Martin Beavis

Post by Chris Dickinson
So the Ostend birth could have been back to the late 1780s, more likely the early 1790s. Sorry to be misleading.

Chris - You may be right about an earlier date of birth in the early 1790s. The excellent free Lancashire OPC site
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/index.html
has an unpromising 1821 transcription
Baptism: 26 Jul 1821 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Robert Hutton - [Child] of John Hutton & Sally
Abode: Scotland Rd
Occupation: Merchant
Baptised by: T. H. Heathcote Curate
Register: Baptisms 1821 - 1822, Page 45, Entry 360
Source: LDS Film 1656418
Liverpool, St Peter, Baptised 26 July 1821, BORN 31 October 1793, John Robert, son of John [Robert deleted] and Sa??y [overwritten as Sally] HUTTON, abode Scotland Road, father Merchant
I believe FMP has also recently uploaded Lancashire PRs.
So why was he baptised 28 years after birth? Might he have been unbaptised by default if his father had been a Liverpool merchant based in Ostend? Might he have been baptised prior to his marriage? If indeed the Ostend man really is your man.
BTW, where do you think Ostend was at that time? We know it as being in Belgium today but Ancestry recognizes it as Ostende, Ennepe-Ruhr-Kreis, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany, so beware of looking only in Belgium.
Good luck - Martin Beavis

Thank you for taking the time on this.

Indeed, the Lancashire site is excellent, and I've only been able to to proceed as quickly as I have because of it.

I had taken that 1821 baptism as being of some cousin, and I hadn't seen the image. That changes things - thank you very much.

I'm a bit dubious about his father being a merchant - I don't quite trust any statement from this guy!

Good point about who had Ostend in 1793. I've just had a look at the Belgian State Archives, filtering it as Oostende, and the earliest names for civil registration are from 1799. Wiki suggests that Ostend was under French control 1792/3 onwards, and I can imagine that BMD events were a bit chaotic.

Perhape he needed a baptism document for official reasons in 1821. I suppose that lots of people were in the same boat.

I will have a look through British state Calendars that might show up passports perhaps or mention 'merchant' acivity.

Thanks again. If anything of interest happens I shall keep the group informed.

[Evertjan.]

Post by Martin Beavis
BTW, where do you think Ostend was at that time? We know it as being in
Belgium today
but Ancestry recognizes it as Ostende, Ennepe-Ruhr-Kreis,
North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany,

That is: 58313 Ostende, Herdecke, Germany

Methinks Ancestry is not a good authority on placenames.

Post by Martin Beavis
so beware of looking only in Belgium.

Even in Belgium, there are "Oostende" and "Oosteinde",
while "Ostend" is just English for the first one:

Dutch: Oostende
English: Ostend
French: Ostende
German: Ostende

============

"Oost-e[i]nd[e]" means "East-end" in Dutch, so also in Flemish.

"Ost-ende" is the same in German.

So, indeed, there are many, many places
where the east-end became a location on it's own.

I found:

8400 Oostende, Belgium
2387 Oosteinde, Belgium

Oosteind, Waalwijk, Noord-Brabant, Netherlands
Oosteind, Oosterhout, Noord-Brabant, Netherlands
Oosteind, Papendrecht, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
Oosteinde, Eemsnond, Groningen, Netherlands
Oosteinde, Aalsmeer, Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Oosteinde, Berkhout Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Oosteinde, Nunspeet, Gelderland, Netherlands
Oosteinde, Hillegom, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
Oosteinde, Schoonebeek, Drenthe, Netherlands
Oosteinde, Woerden, Utrecht, Netherlands
Oosteinde, Teylingen, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
Oosteinde, Reeuwijk, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
[in addition there are many streetnames with those names]

2384 Ostende, Breitenfurt bei Wien, Austria

26465 Ostende, Langeoog [island], Germany
49828 Ostende, Georgsdorf, Germany
58675 Ostend, Hemer, Germany
58313 Ostende, Herdecke, Germany
64331 Ostende, Weiterstadt, Germany

Ostende, Pinamar, Argentina

[Norfolkman]

Post by Chris Dickinson
Hi All,
I have, over the last 48 hours, been tracing a Liverpool ancestry that may
have just placed me in Ostend - and I'm very much out of my depth here.
I have been using purely free online sources, and I'm not asking people to
go beyond that (but, hey, you may if you wish!).
I have an irrefutable line to Richard Lloyd, a dentist (quite well-known
in dental history) and his wife Isabella Hutton. They were married in
Walton-on-the-Hill in modern day Liverpool in 1846, where her father is
named as John Robert Hutton (he also has a son of that name, Isabella's
brother).
All of the BMD events in this clan are basically Liverpool.
John Robert Hutton was married to Sarah Brogden. Their oldest recorded
child, Sarah, was born 03-01-1816.
He is variously described in the marriages of his children and elsewhere
as gentleman, commercial traveller, and traveller. His relations in the
next generation are generally prosperous middle-class.
There is a John Robert Hutton in the 1851 Census who has recently married
and is described as a commercial traveller and brewer. He has what looks
like a new wife and son. There was a Sarah Hutton who died aged 58 in
1845, and a John Robert Hutton who married Ann Butters in 1850.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGYX-B9Y
As you will notice, however, this John Robert Hunter (whom I'm assuming is
the same man) is described as born in Ostend. Can anyone help in pointing
me to how I can research this, or even do the research for me?! I'm not
optimistic about what I've found on records in this era and area.
Thank you,
Chris

Hsving chewed over this during my evening meal, I'm inclined to doubt the
c.1799 date, whatever may be in the Family Search extract.

First, c.1799 is a bit tight (though certainly not impossible) for a child
to be born in 1816 (birth as well as baptism).

Second,if the Sarah who died in 1845 aged 58 is his first wife, then she
would have been 12 years older than him (by the way, her last child would
have been born in 1826 - which is close on 40).

Third, if he were courting a much younger wife (and had the charm/looks of a
smooth-talking commercial traveller) then he might well have declared a
younger age (and got away with it).

So the Ostend birth could have been back to the late 1780s, more likely the
early 1790s. Sorry to be misleading.

Chris


Just as an aside, there is an Ostend in North Norfolk just south of Bacton.
I don't know if it was populated in 1800

[Chris Dickinson]

On Thursday, 23 August 2018 19:53:16 UTC+1, Norfolkman wrote:
<snip>

Post by Norfolkman
Just as an aside, there is an Ostend in North Norfolk just south of Bacton.
I don't know if it was populated in 1800

Thanks for the caution.

I don't trust this line at all, so other suggestions like this are welcome.

Everything is fine about JHR's progeny, just what he was saying about his ancestry rings warning bells. I could get a certificate for his second marriage in 1850, but I suspect that this will only repeat the info that I already have (from him) about his father.

As nothing has come up in standard searches, I think that a non-British Ostend is still the more likely prospect.

Chris