Vicar in a muddle?

[Jenny M Benson]

I have yet to investigate this fully, but it does seem very likely that
the vicar got the 2 fathers mixed up when writing up a Marriage Register
entry.

I know that John Berriman married Susan Tytherleigh in Cricklade RD in
1841. Then I find the Marriage Register entry (Ancestry - Wiltshire
Church of England Marriages & Banns) for widow Susan Berriman to widower
William Day at Redbourne Cheney in 1874. William Day's father's name is
given as James Tytherleigh and Susan Berriman's father's name is given
as Henry Day!

[Charles Ellson]

On Tue, 5 May 2020 12:33:50 +0100, Jenny M Benson

Post by Jenny M Benson
I have yet to investigate this fully, but it does seem very likely that
the vicar got the 2 fathers mixed up when writing up a Marriage Register
entry.
I know that John Berriman married Susan Tytherleigh in Cricklade RD in
1841. Then I find the Marriage Register entry (Ancestry - Wiltshire
Church of England Marriages & Banns) for widow Susan Berriman to widower
William Day at Redbourne Cheney in 1874. William Day's father's name is
given as James Tytherleigh and Susan Berriman's father's name is given
as Henry Day!

Been there, seen that. I've also seen name mixups where someone other
than the bride/groom might have given the details e.g. "father's name"
recorded was actually that of the paternal grandfather.

[Ian Goddard]

Post by Charles Ellson
Been there, seen that. I've also seen name mixups where someone other
than the bride/groom might have given the details e.g. "father's name"
recorded was actually that of the paternal grandfather.

My late father-in-law and his siblings were so alienated by their father
that when he married my f-i-l gave his own brother's name instead. In
fact, when we married I didn't know my wife's grandfather was still
alive and I'm not sure she did either.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Ian Goddard

Post by Charles Ellson
Been there, seen that. I've also seen name mixups where someone other
than the bride/groom might have given the details e.g. "father's name"
recorded was actually that of the paternal grandfather.

My late father-in-law and his siblings were so alienated by their
father that when he married my f-i-l gave his own brother's name
instead. In fact, when we married I didn't know my wife's grandfather
was still alive and I'm not sure she did either.

People often don't know what even their close relatives are really
called. When I was born my mother was going to call me John Athelstan,
but decided on Athelstan John so that I wouldn't have the same initials
as my aunt, who my mother thought was called Joyce Althea. In fact she
was called Althea Joyce, so the "correction" created the very problem
my mother wanted to avoid. She could of course have consulted my
father, but this was wartime and he was probably at sea at the time

[Jenny M Benson]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
People often don't know what even their close relatives are really
called. When I was born my mother was going to call me John Athelstan,
but decided on Athelstan John so that I wouldn't have the same initials
as my aunt, who my mother thought was called Joyce Althea. In fact she
was called Althea Joyce, so the "correction" created the very problem my
mother wanted to avoid. She could of course have consulted my father,
but this was wartime and he was probably at sea at the time

By that token, some parents don't even know what their children are
called! I have several people in my tree who were registered and/or
baptised as First Middle and then appear in Censuses etc as Middle
First. Sometimes the change is made between Birth Registration and Baptism.


Swerving slightly, but on the subject of names, I do wish FindMyPast
understood the difference between "exact" and "variation." If I search,
for example for name variants of Harriet Ursula, I am happy to accept
Harriet on its own or even Ursula. If I *do not* opt for name variants
then I want exactly what I asked for, which was Harriet Ursula, not
either name on its own. Harrumph!

[cecilia]

On Thu, 7 May 2020 16:03:32 +0100, Jenny M Benson

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
People often don't know what even their close relatives are really
called. When I was born my mother was going to call me John Athelstan,
but decided on Athelstan John so that I wouldn't have the same initials
as my aunt, who my mother thought was called Joyce Althea. In fact she
was called Althea Joyce, so the "correction" created the very problem my
mother wanted to avoid. She could of course have consulted my father,
but this was wartime and he was probably at sea at the time

By that token, some parents don't even know what their children are
called! I have several people in my tree who were registered and/or
baptised as First Middle and then appear in Censuses etc as Middle
First. Sometimes the change is made between Birth Registration and Baptism.

Anecdote 1
I was asked by an acquaintance to determine the connection of one of
her relatives to a university College in the late 19C-early 20C. I
found that he had submitted (on request) a copy of his birth
certificate, on which someone from the College had noted that his two
given names were in reverse order from the order used by him and his
school in his application documents. He had not been baptised.
I went further than my remit and looked for the family in census and
BMD indexes. All four (parents, daughter, son) had official records
showing swapping of given name order at some time or other.

Anecdote 2
Long ago I was at a CoE baptism where the vicar asked for the child's
name at the appropriate moment. There was first a silance (the
parents had, a few moments before been told that it was not their
place to speak, one godparent was worried he might inadvertantly say a
family name that no one has been prepared to give their own child
since the 19C, another godparent realised she did not know the baby's
middle name; the third godparent was a proxy and felt the others
should speak) and then a lot of people spoke at once. The vicar
heard and used the names in reverse order. The parents asked him
before they left the church what the result was regarding the child's
names and he said they should use the order on the birth certificate..

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by cecilia
On Thu, 7 May 2020 16:03:32 +0100, Jenny M Benson

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
People often don't know what even their close relatives are really
called. When I was born my mother was going to call me John Athelstan,
but decided on Athelstan John so that I wouldn't have the same initials
as my aunt, who my mother thought was called Joyce Althea. In fact she
was called Althea Joyce, so the "correction" created the very problem my
mother wanted to avoid. She could of course have consulted my father,
but this was wartime and he was probably at sea at the time

By that token, some parents don't even know what their children are
called! I have several people in my tree who were registered and/or
baptised as First Middle and then appear in Censuses etc as Middle
First. Sometimes the change is made between Birth Registration and Baptism.

Anecdote 1
I was asked by an acquaintance to determine the connection of one of
her relatives to a university College in the late 19C-early 20C. I
found that he had submitted (on request) a copy of his birth
certificate, on which someone from the College had noted that his two
given names were in reverse order from the order used by him and his
school in his application documents. He had not been baptised.
I went further than my remit and looked for the family in census and
BMD indexes. All four (parents, daughter, son) had official records
showing swapping of given name order at some time or other.

Ha. A few months ago I needed a copy of the registration of my father's
birth in 1908 in Sydney, Nova Scotia. Apparently at that time they
weren't producing birth certificates (at least they didn't offer me
one), but they sent a PDF file of the relevant page of the register.
His second name was Karslake, admittedly not the most common of names,
but was written in such a weird way that it could only be read if one
knew what it was. It had several other errors, including saying that my
grandfather was a steelworker, which he wasn't, unless I've been lied
to all these years. It was probably recorded by a barely literate
person who couldn't understand my grandmother's way of speaking (she
had come from England only a few months earlier). It all underlines the
fact that one cannot have 100% confidence in what official documents
say.

Post by cecilia
Anecdote 2
Long ago I was at a CoE baptism where the vicar asked for the child's
name at the appropriate moment. There was first a silance (the
parents had, a few moments before been told that it was not their
place to speak, one godparent was worried he might inadvertantly say a
family name that no one has been prepared to give their own child
since the 19C, another godparent realised she did not know the baby's
middle name; the third godparent was a proxy and felt the others
should speak) and then a lot of people spoke at once. The vicar
heard and used the names in reverse order. The parents asked him
before they left the church what the result was regarding the child's
names and he said they should use the order on the birth certificate..

[cecilia]

On Sat, 9 May 2020 15:47:35 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

[...]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Ha. A few months ago I needed a copy of the registration of my father's
birth in 1908 in Sydney, Nova Scotia. Apparently at that time they
weren't producing birth certificates (at least they didn't offer me
one), but they sent a PDF file of the relevant page of the register.
His second name was Karslake, admittedly not the most common of names,
but was written in such a weird way that it could only be read if one
knew what it was. It had several other errors, including saying that my
grandfather was a steelworker, which he wasn't, unless I've been lied
to all these years. It was probably recorded by a barely literate
person who couldn't understand my grandmother's way of speaking (she
had come from England only a few months earlier). It all underlines the
fact that one cannot have 100% confidence in what official documents
say.

We knew my great-aunt's birthday, and it was on her passport. It's
also inscribed in a book given to her by her slightly older sister for
her 10th birthday.

After her death, her son found her birth certificate. It gave date of
birth as one day earlier than the date in her passport etc.

Her birth was at 03:40 and registered 14/13 days after the birth by
her father. I suspect there was a confusion about night of the birth,
along the lines of "two weeks ago, the Tuesday night. Twenty to four
in the morning" and somehow the day was taken as that of the Tuesday,
rather than Wednesday." Sadly, no record was found of what was needed
(affidavit from a parent?) to get the correct date on her first
passport.

[Richard Smith]

Post by Jenny M Benson
I have yet to investigate this fully, but it does seem very likely that
the vicar got the 2 fathers mixed up when writing up a Marriage Register
entry.
I know that John Berriman married Susan Tytherleigh in Cricklade RD in
1841. Then I find the Marriage Register entry (Ancestry - Wiltshire
Church of England Marriages & Banns) for widow Susan Berriman to widower
William Day at Redbourne Cheney in 1874. William Day's father's name is
given as James Tytherleigh and Susan Berriman's father's name is given
as Henry Day!

At least in this case it's fairly clear what had happened.

Richard

[cecilia]

On Tue, 5 May 2020 12:33:50 +0100, Jenny M Benson

Post by Jenny M Benson
I have yet to investigate this fully, but it does seem very likely that
the vicar got the 2 fathers mixed up when writing up a Marriage Register
entry.
I know that John Berriman married Susan Tytherleigh in Cricklade RD in
1841. Then I find the Marriage Register entry (Ancestry - Wiltshire
Church of England Marriages & Banns) for widow Susan Berriman to widower
William Day at Redbourne Cheney in 1874. William Day's father's name is
given as James Tytherleigh and Susan Berriman's father's name is given
as Henry Day!

I've had a case of father's names switched in a marriage entry.

I've also seen (1765, 1776,1770) baptismal entries for three children
(who, from other evidence, I expected to be Anna, William and
Elizabeth, in that order) where the Vicar wrote in the first case
"William, son of William"
and in the other two
"William, son of Richard"

I found no entry for Anna.

Corrections (in a different hand) were made - the father's name in
the first first entry was corrected to Richard, and the child's
details in the third entry were corrected to
"Elizabeth, dau of Richard"

(Elizabeth married, which may have been when her baptismal entry was
checked and corrected. Anna did not marry. It is possible that the
first entry should have been for "Anna, dau of Richard".)