18th century brick wall

[Ruth Wilson]

Here's something to keep your grey matter working!

I am a pretty experienced genealogist/family historian of many years
standing ... (I started young!) and I know my way around the standard
sources, but I have a brick wall that involves Scotland and military
resources that take me out of my comfort zone.

So, read the scenario, what would you suggest I do next? Or do I just
shrug my shoulders and accept the brick wall (until something turns up)?

Ancestors William Fraser (soldier) and Martha McKinley marry in Paisley,
1799.
They have a child baptised in Dunipace, Stirling, 1804 (that's quite a
gap for a first child though ...)
Two children are baptised in Stockport, Cheshire, 1806-1808. One is
buried in Didsbury and the register states they are living in nearby
Heaton.
1810-1816 they have three children baptised in Liverpool where their
son, my ancestor, continued to live, marry, die. This son is the only
one I can definitively trace - one other is possible, but I lack proof.

None of the baptisms give any information on occupation - all in
Independent chapels.

I have found no burial or census entry for William and Martha in
Liverpool or the wider Merseyside area. (There is one possible, but
unlikely, burial for Martha in 1831 - unlikely as there is a child from
the same address buried around the same time as daughter of Charles &
Martha - I don't have a record of a Charles and I can't find Charles and
Martha in Liverpool records).I have bought and rejected the likely later
death certificates.

There are three possible Martha McKinley baptisms on Scotland's
People/Family Search. I have not yet been able to discount any of them.

One possible clue - the child buried in Didsbury was Christian(a).
Around the same time, Christiana McKinley, single woman of Heaton, was
also buried. However, the Christiana McKinleys I have found don't
correlate with the Marthas (ie not a sister).

Right, any bright ideas? I will admit this has been hanging around for
many years, and I suspect that "William Fraser, soldier" is just too
vague. But, I live in hope that some odd record will turn up with a big
clue.

Thanks.

Ruth

[john]

Post by Ruth Wilson
Here's something to keep your grey matter working!
I am a pretty experienced genealogist/family historian of many years
standing ... (I started young!) and I know my way around the standard
sources, but I have a brick wall that involves Scotland and military
resources that take me out of my comfort zone.
So, read the scenario, what would you suggest I do next? Or do I just
shrug my shoulders and accept the brick wall (until something turns up)?
Ancestors William Fraser (soldier) and Martha McKinley marry in Paisley,
1799.
They have a child baptised in Dunipace, Stirling, 1804 (that's quite a
gap for a first child though ...)
Two children are baptised in Stockport, Cheshire, 1806-1808. One is
buried in Didsbury and the register states they are living in nearby
Heaton.
1810-1816 they have three children baptised in Liverpool where their
son, my ancestor, continued to live, marry, die. This son is the only
one I can definitively trace - one other is possible, but I lack proof.
None of the baptisms give any information on occupation - all in
Independent chapels.
I have found no burial or census entry for William and Martha in
Liverpool or the wider Merseyside area. (There is one possible, but
unlikely, burial for Martha in 1831 - unlikely as there is a child from
the same address buried around the same time as daughter of Charles &
Martha - I don't have a record of a Charles and I can't find Charles and
Martha in Liverpool records).I have bought and rejected the likely later
death certificates.
There are three possible Martha McKinley baptisms on Scotland's
People/Family Search. I have not yet been able to discount any of them.
One possible clue - the child buried in Didsbury was Christian(a).
Around the same time, Christiana McKinley, single woman of Heaton, was
also buried. However, the Christiana McKinleys I have found don't
correlate with the Marthas (ie not a sister).
Right, any bright ideas? I will admit this has been hanging around for
many years, and I suspect that "William Fraser, soldier" is just too
vague. But, I live in hope that some odd record will turn up with a big
clue.
Thanks.
Ruth

It would help if you gave all the birth/death dates/locations etc. and
all the names (and of those possibilities and may or may not have
discounted) to save use trying to piece it together?

Do you know which regiment William was in or the regiments in the towns
you know he was in? There was quite a lot military activity in Europe
and elsewhere in the early 1800s.

[Ruth Wilson]

Post by john

Post by Ruth Wilson
Here's something to keep your grey matter working!

snipped

Post by john

Post by Ruth Wilson
Right, any bright ideas? I will admit this has been hanging around for
many years, and I suspect that "William Fraser, soldier" is just too
vague. But, I live in hope that some odd record will turn up with a
big clue.
Thanks.
Ruth

It would help if you gave all the birth/death dates/locations etc. and
all the names (and of those possibilities and may or may not have
discounted) to save use trying to piece it together?
Do you know which regiment William was in or the regiments in the towns
you know he was in? There was quite a lot military activity in Europe
and elsewhere in the early 1800s.

Thanks for replying, John. No I don't know the regiment which is
something I would like some advice on. I only know 'soldier' from
Paisley 1799 which seems a bit too vague to go on, unless someone knows
what I could do. Apparently there were barracks in Stockport, but I
would be surprised if he was still a soldier in Liverpool. The military
aspect is something that is a bit of a new area for me.

I didn't post too many details - I have quite a lot - and hoped the
outline would give enough for some ideas of any new directions, but I
can post them later, if it will help.

[Gordon]

Post by Ruth Wilson
Here's something to keep your grey matter working!
I am a pretty experienced genealogist/family historian of many years
standing ... (I started young!) and I know my way around the standard
sources, but I have a brick wall that involves Scotland and military
resources that take me out of my comfort zone.
So, read the scenario, what would you suggest I do next? Or do I just shrug
my shoulders and accept the brick wall (until something turns up)?
Ancestors William Fraser (soldier) and Martha McKinley marry in Paisley,
1799.
They have a child baptised in Dunipace, Stirling, 1804 (that's quite a gap
for a first child though ...)
Two children are baptised in Stockport, Cheshire, 1806-1808. One is buried
in Didsbury and the register states they are living in nearby Heaton.
1810-1816 they have three children baptised in Liverpool where their son,
my ancestor, continued to live, marry, die. This son is the only one I can
definitively trace - one other is possible, but I lack proof.
None of the baptisms give any information on occupation - all in
Independent chapels.
I have found no burial or census entry for William and Martha in Liverpool
or the wider Merseyside area. (There is one possible, but unlikely, burial
for Martha in 1831 - unlikely as there is a child from the same address
buried around the same time as daughter of Charles & Martha - I don't have
a record of a Charles and I can't find Charles and Martha in Liverpool
records).I have bought and rejected the likely later death certificates.
There are three possible Martha McKinley baptisms on Scotland's
People/Family Search. I have not yet been able to discount any of them.
One possible clue - the child buried in Didsbury was Christian(a). Around
the same time, Christiana McKinley, single woman of Heaton, was also
buried. However, the Christiana McKinleys I have found don't correlate with
the Marthas (ie not a sister).
Right, any bright ideas? I will admit this has been hanging around for many
years, and I suspect that "William Fraser, soldier" is just too vague. But,
I live in hope that some odd record will turn up with a big clue.
Thanks.
Ruth

The first thing your info suggested to me was that he was still in the army
which could easily account for the locations and movements you posted. A
downside is it could be difficult to find when and where he left the
military, it could even be abroad as the army was well spread then.

It is a long shot but try to locate service records. His marriage may well
be (possibly should be) recorded in them which will help you identify the
correct records. It will be a blind search but you could strike lucky. I'm
not sure how army records from that time are "filed" at Kew. I don't know if
army records from that time are online but they will be at Kew, look up
their information leaflets which are online and they should be able to help
you try to locate his records.

Good hunting

Gordon



When I hit a brickwall I try coming at it from different angles even obscure
ones sometimes.

[Ruth Wilson]

Follow up to my query on William & Martha Fraser, early C19, Scotland to
Liverpool - details in earlier post.

Thank you to John and Gordon for your replies - Gordon, do you have
knowledge that these were military posting places?

What this has done is make me go back and look at my information - I was
going to post more details as per John's suggestion, but then I started
to question some of my assumptions and I think I have moved forward a
bit. I have changed my "probably not" to "probably yes".

I have the burial and death cert of a William Fraser, d. 1848 Liverpool,
aged 71. However, the informant, and wife in 1841, is called Betty, so I
had put this to one side. Last week, I decided I needed to research this
couple further, and found they had married late in life, when both were
widowed, in 1838. So, if the burial of Martha below is correct, it could
well be William (I rather hope so, as it names his father as Donald!).

I have a burial of Martha Fraser, buried Liverpool, 1831, aged 55, but I
had thought this less likely as a year later an infant Martha, daughter
of Charles & Martha Fraser was buried giving the same address, and I
know of no Charles in the family. However, I can find no trace of this
couple anywhere and I now wonder if the baby was the illegitimate child
of Martha junior (there was a daughter of the right name and age). The
father may well or not have been called Charles, but not Fraser.

There are a few assumptions, but given that these are pretty much the
only entries that fit, and they DO fit, I am using that as a working
hypothesis for now.

Next step, when the libraries reopen, check the directories for an
address for William c. 1831-32 (I've just checked my ancient notes - I
only checked for James, his son, at these dates!)

Moral - revisit your research every now and then.
a) your ideas might change;
b) you will have other information (how often have I gone back and
realised that the neighbours were relatives);
c) new information is indexed and/or published ( I recently broke a 30+
year brick wall when FMP digitised an obscure local newspaper with a
report of an ancestor's death and named his father - I'd scoured all the
more obvious newspapers years ago, on microfilm and online indexes).

Any helpful thoughts or comments welcome, but I thought I'd share.

Ruth

[Gordon]

Post by Ruth Wilson
Thank you to John and Gordon for your replies - Gordon, do you have
knowledge that these were military posting places?

Sorry I don't. None I'm aware were garrisons but that does not mean that a
regiment could not have been posted there or close by. Many towns had
barracks which would have housed no more than a single regiment. Liverpool
would have been an embarkation/disembarkation port for overseas postings
especially the Caribbean.

The family of an ancestor who was in the military when he married can be
"fun" researching unless you know his regiment. As I previously mentioned
his marriage is likely to have been recorded in his records so that could
help you try to locate them.

The National Archives at Kew has some good information pamphlets online to
help with researching military ancestors

Good hunting

Gordon

* I promise I will format my posts properly in the future.
* Windows Live Mail just can't quote! Luckily, I have found this:
* http://www.dusko-lolic.from.hr/wlmquote/

[Kate]

"Ruth Wilson" wrote in message news:o2ewG.274571$***@fx09.am4...


Follow up to my query on William & Martha Fraser, early C19, Scotland to
Liverpool - details in earlier post.

Thank you to John and Gordon for your replies - Gordon, do you have
knowledge that these were military posting places?

What this has done is make me go back and look at my information - I was
going to post more details as per John's suggestion, but then I started
to question some of my assumptions and I think I have moved forward a
bit. I have changed my "probably not" to "probably yes".

I have the burial and death cert of a William Fraser, d. 1848 Liverpool,
aged 71. However, the informant, and wife in 1841, is called Betty, so I
had put this to one side. Last week, I decided I needed to research this
couple further, and found they had married late in life, when both were
widowed, in 1838. So, if the burial of Martha below is correct, it could
well be William (I rather hope so, as it names his father as Donald!).

I have a burial of Martha Fraser, buried Liverpool, 1831, aged 55, but I
had thought this less likely as a year later an infant Martha, daughter
of Charles & Martha Fraser was buried giving the same address, and I
know of no Charles in the family. However, I can find no trace of this
couple anywhere and I now wonder if the baby was the illegitimate child
of Martha junior (there was a daughter of the right name and age). The
father may well or not have been called Charles, but not Fraser.

There are a few assumptions, but given that these are pretty much the
only entries that fit, and they DO fit, I am using that as a working
hypothesis for now.

Next step, when the libraries reopen, check the directories for an
address for William c. 1831-32 (I've just checked my ancient notes - I
only checked for James, his son, at these dates!)

Moral - revisit your research every now and then.
a) your ideas might change;
b) you will have other information (how often have I gone back and
realised that the neighbours were relatives);
c) new information is indexed and/or published ( I recently broke a 30+
year brick wall when FMP digitised an obscure local newspaper with a
report of an ancestor's death and named his father - I'd scoured all the
more obvious newspapers years ago, on microfilm and online indexes).

Any helpful thoughts or comments welcome, but I thought I'd share.

Ruth

While scrolling through military records on TNA I found an unrelated person
who was born at Paisley, Renfrewshire and had served in the 95th Foot
Regiment, Fraser Fencibles.
I Googled for information and found "Highland Fencible Corps". If you follow
that through you will get a brief history of the Regiment which was
disbanded in 1802.
Because of the name it seems rational to suppose this could be the Regiment
William joined.

The question remains did William continue in military service joining
another Regiment or take up a civilian occupation?

According to what I have read about Liverpool the only time troops were
garrisoned there was in the 16th and 17th centuries. Liverpool developed
into a huge trading port and attracted many outsiders. Perhaps William went
there to find more opportunities.

The marriage certificate of any of his children should give his occupation.

To anyone else reading this, if you have lost an ancestor down under please
let me know as I am desperate for something to research.

Regards

Kate
Sydney, Australia

[Ruth Wilson]

While scrolling through military records on TNA  I found an unrelated
person who was born at Paisley, Renfrewshire and had served in the 95th
Foot Regiment, Fraser Fencibles.
I Googled for information and found "Highland Fencible Corps". If you
follow that through you will get a brief  history of the Regiment which
was disbanded in 1802.
Because of the name it seems rational to suppose this could be the
Regiment William joined.
The question remains did William continue in military service joining
another Regiment or take up a civilian occupation?
According to what I have read about Liverpool the only time troops were
garrisoned there was in the 16th and 17th centuries. Liverpool developed
into a huge trading port and attracted many outsiders. Perhaps William
went there to find more opportunities.
The marriage certificate of any of his children should give his occupation.
To anyone else reading this, if you have lost an ancestor down under
please let me know as I am desperate for something to research.
Regards
Kate
Sydney, Australia

Thanks for that, Kate. I'll make a note of it. All grist to the mill!

Ruth