Bowes-Lyon - pronunciation?

[c***@gmail.com]

Dear all.

This is my first post to this group and I am glad if anybody could
help me.

I am Japanese guy and sometimes am confused at pronunciation of
person's names and place-names.

This time, I'd like to seek your help on pronunciation of "Bowes-
Lyon", a Scottish Earl's family names including the maiden name of the
late Queen Mother.

My _Debrett's Correct Form_ says:
Bowes - Bose (to rhyme with 'rose');
Lyon - Lion.

I thought this 'Lyon - Lion' meant to pronoun it something like
'leeon' like a French town, not like an animal, because it also
describe as "Lybden - Liveden (as in give)".

However, when I was looking for any video/audio resources in the
internet, I found the audio file NPR (American?) reported the decease
of the Queen Mom, where the reporter pronunce it as "lion" like an
animal.

http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/wesun/20020331.wesun.06.ram

Could you please clarify me how the British people pronunce "Bowes-
Lyon"?
Also, how about that of "Lord Lyon"?

Thank you very much for your attention, and I look forward to your
advices!!!

Ken

[Jenny M Benson]

Post by c***@gmail.com
Bowes - Bose (to rhyme with 'rose');
Lyon - Lion.
I thought this 'Lyon - Lion' meant to pronoun it something like 'leeon'
like a French town, not like an animal, because it also describe as
"Lybden - Liveden (as in give)".

Yes, Bowes like rose and Lion like the animal is correct.

[Don Moody]

Post by c***@gmail.com
Dear all.
This is my first post to this group and I am glad if anybody could
help me.
I am Japanese guy and sometimes am confused at pronunciation of
person's names and place-names.

Ken,

Most people in 'britain' would be honoured that a Japanese person is
trying to improve his pronunciation of English. That is a lot more
than most British people would try to do if speaking Japanese. Even
those such as myself with decades of training in martial arts rarely
try to speak your language in your way.

There is a reason which applies to your nation and mine. Pronunciation
is not constant. It varies between social classes and between
different regions of our countries. It also varies over time. English
has an additional problem. Our spelling is not phonetic. The same
sounds can be spelled in different ways, and the same spellings can
have many different spoken sounds.

There are two extreme approaches. One is to come to Britain and
immerse yourself for several years in the speech of different regions
and classes. If that is not practicable, it may be best not to worry
about pronunciation at all and concentrate wholly on improving your
written English. If you meet British people and attempt to speak to
them your form of speech will sound strange, but so long as you do not
get excited they will understand what you are trying to say. I would
hope they would react politely and give you full marks for trying.
Which was the reaction I got from senior members of the Kodokan when I
tried to speak to them in Japanese long ago. I am sure it tortured
their ears but they were too polite to show it. Apart from being too
busy throwing me around the dojo.

For what little it is worth I would pronounce Bowes as bow, the thing
which shoots arrows. I would pronounce Lyon as lion, the animal. If
you look at the flag of Bowes-Lyon you will see why. However, just to
show the awkwardness of the British, Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother
was never addressed in person by name. She was Ma'am to her face. In
her absence she was spoken of as the Queen Mum. You may not know in
Japan that she was a keen and very accomplished ballroom dancer; and
she could read building plans better than most architects. She could
then use those plans to stipulate what length of time she would spend
going round a college in London University; and she kept to time to
the second. Woe betide any pompous jackass who tried to change the
appearance within the college or the route through it. She detected
every such falsity. In very simple terms, she was good at her job. And
far far too polite to question any attempt you made to pronounce her
family name. You really need not worry.

Don

[willers]

Post by Don Moody

Post by c***@gmail.com
Dear all.
This is my first post to this group and I am glad if anybody could
help me.
I am Japanese guy and sometimes am confused at pronunciation of
person's names and place-names.

Ken,
Most people in 'britain' would be honoured that a Japanese person is
trying to improve his pronunciation of English. That is a lot more than
most British people would try to do if speaking Japanese. Even those such
as myself with decades of training in martial arts rarely try to speak
your language in your way.
There is a reason which applies to your nation and mine. Pronunciation is
not constant. It varies between social classes and between different
regions of our countries. It also varies over time. English has an
additional problem. Our spelling is not phonetic. The same sounds can be
spelled in different ways, and the same spellings can have many different
spoken sounds.
There are two extreme approaches. One is to come to Britain and immerse
yourself for several years in the speech of different regions and classes.
If that is not practicable, it may be best not to worry about
pronunciation at all and concentrate wholly on improving your written
English. If you meet British people and attempt to speak to them your form
of speech will sound strange, but so long as you do not get excited they
will understand what you are trying to say. I would hope they would react
politely and give you full marks for trying. Which was the reaction I got
from senior members of the Kodokan when I tried to speak to them in
Japanese long ago. I am sure it tortured their ears but they were too
polite to show it. Apart from being too busy throwing me around the dojo.
For what little it is worth I would pronounce Bowes as bow, the thing
which shoots arrows. I would pronounce Lyon as lion, the animal. If you
look at the flag of Bowes-Lyon you will see why. However, just to show the
awkwardness of the British, Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother was never
addressed in person by name. She was Ma'am to her face. In her absence she
was spoken of as the Queen Mum. You may not know in Japan that she was a
keen and very accomplished ballroom dancer; and she could read building
plans better than most architects. She could then use those plans to
stipulate what length of time she would spend going round a college in
London University; and she kept to time to the second. Woe betide any
pompous jackass who tried to change the appearance within the college or
the route through it. She detected every such falsity. In very simple
terms, she was good at her job. And far far too polite to question any
attempt you made to pronounce her family name. You really need not worry.
Don

Holy Christ!!

[Richard van Schaik]

Post by willers
Holy Christ!!

Please elaborate as the post of Don made perfect sense to me (but I can
be wrong by lack of knowledge).

Richard

[Don Moody]

Post by Richard van Schaik

Post by willers
Holy Christ!!

Please elaborate as the post of Don made perfect sense to me (but I
can be wrong by lack of knowledge).

Join the club Richard. I couldn't understand willers' ejaculation
either. And I'm sure our new Japanese poster ill be mystified too.

Don

[Richard van Schaik]

Post by Don Moody

Post by Richard van Schaik

Post by willers
Holy Christ!!

Please elaborate as the post of Don made perfect sense to me (but I
can be wrong by lack of knowledge).

Join the club Richard. I couldn't understand willers' ejaculation
either. And I'm sure our new Japanese poster ill be mystified too.

The OP is to be considered too in answering, as the culture he stems
from is totaly different from the European one. I think we already gave
answers not possible to think of in the japanese culture, but would
sincerely like the opinion of the OP on this (even though OT on the part
of genealogy).

Richard

[willers]

Post by Richard van Schaik

Post by willers
Holy Christ!!

Please elaborate as the post of Don made perfect sense to me (but I can
be wrong by lack of knowledge).

Join the club Richard. I couldn't understand willers' ejaculation either.
And I'm sure our new Japanese poster ill be mystified too.
Don

My "ejaculation", as limited as it was (but not bad for my age), speaks to
the issue of excess while at the same time acknowledging the remote
possibility that the OP may actually be interested in a dear and departed
monarch who could trip the light fantastic across the world's most famous
ballrooms all the while reading the architectural plans of those self same
ballrooms no doubt with an eye to any hazards which could, perchance,
disrupt the cadence. Huh?
W

[Andrew Sellon]

Post by willers
My "ejaculation", as limited as it was (but not bad for my age), speaks to
the issue of excess while at the same time acknowledging the remote
possibility that the OP may actually be interested in a dear and departed
monarch who could trip the light fantastic across the world's most famous
ballrooms all the while reading the architectural plans of those self same
ballrooms no doubt with an eye to any hazards which could, perchance,
disrupt the cadence. Huh?

Huh?

Yours Aye Andrew Sellon

[Don Moody]

Post by willers

Post by Don Moody

Post by Richard van Schaik

Post by willers
Holy Christ!!

Please elaborate as the post of Don made perfect sense to me (but
I can be wrong by lack of knowledge).

Join the club Richard. I couldn't understand willers' ejaculation
either. And I'm sure our new Japanese poster ill be mystified too.
Don

My "ejaculation", as limited as it was (but not bad for my age),
speaks to the issue of excess while at the same time acknowledging
the remote possibility that the OP may actually be interested in a
dear and departed monarch who could trip the light fantastic across
the world's most famous ballrooms all the while reading the
architectural plans of those self same ballrooms no doubt with an
eye to any hazards which could, perchance, disrupt the cadence. Huh?
W

If you simply want to write an anti-Royalist diatribe, then why not do
so and refrain from confusing our Japanese poster?

In any case what I wrote about the Queen Mum was neither pro- nor
anti-Royalist. It was intended to show our Japanese poster that the
lady was human, a real professional, and to be respected as such. When
she took on the Chancellorship of London University she could very
easily have floated about doing nothing, achieving nothing, and
benefitting nobody. If she had, there could have been no protest and
she couldn't have been fired. So she didn't have to learn how to read
plans, she didn't have to be punctual, she didn't have to bone up on
who she was going to meet and what mattered to those individuals, she
didn't have to turn up to Students Balls and lead off the dancing, she
didn't have to do any of it. But real professionals don't take on jobs
they have no intention of doing properly, and a good measure of
professionalism is doing things properly even when the general public
cannot see what you are doing. The Queen Mum did the Chancellorship
properly. She was a pro, a real trouper. THAT is why she was liked.

It seemed to me that a Japanese person asking about pronunciation of
her family name might well be seeing the show rather than the
substance. So I told him that we also had people of substance amongst
our royalty. It should ring bells with him because he will know that
his own royal family has similar people. His Emperor does not have to
be bothered about anything or anyone, but in fact he is a hard-working
and very eminent taxonomist specialising in goby fish. Indeed so good
at that profession that he was worth inviting to the Linnean Society
in London to give an important lecture on taxonomy.

So, willers, if you are going to ejaculate then don't be so premature.
You might then be able to look at people in all parts of society by
considering whether they contribute or not; and then moving on to
consider whether they contributed because they had to or because it
was a matter of self-respect to do a proper job whether or not anybody
could see it. You can apply the same evaluation to a journeyman
stonemason of a millennium ago carving a figure to go high on a
cathedral facade or a monarch appearing in public today.

A long time ago, when I was well and truly pissed off by an oleaginous
captain of commerce, I bellowed 'Sir X you have no idea of what makes
a man important. A peasant trying 101% to be a useful peasant is a man
of honour worth crossing continents to learn from. A prince not
bothering to try more than 99% to be a useful prince is a shower of
shit not worth turning round to spit on..' Some 400 people fell into
shocked silence. Into which a prince standing behind me said
'D'accord.'

Attacking royalty for being royalty is as stupid and unjust as gassing
Jews for being Jews. Attacking individuals for not doing properly what
they have personally given their word to do is an entirely different
matter.

And finally, your ejaculation did nothing whatever to help our
Japanese guest cope with the idiosyncrasies of English pronunciation.
In that context my mention of flags did help, although you'd have to
know a little about Japanese history and culture to appreciate fully
why that was so.

Don

[willers]

Post by willers

Post by Don Moody

Post by Richard van Schaik

Post by willers
Holy Christ!!

Please elaborate as the post of Don made perfect sense to me (but I can
be wrong by lack of knowledge).

Join the club Richard. I couldn't understand willers' ejaculation
either. And I'm sure our new Japanese poster ill be mystified too.
Don

My "ejaculation", as limited as it was (but not bad for my age), speaks
to the issue of excess while at the same time acknowledging the remote
possibility that the OP may actually be interested in a dear and
departed monarch who could trip the light fantastic across the world's
most famous ballrooms all the while reading the architectural plans of
those self same ballrooms no doubt with an eye to any hazards which
could, perchance, disrupt the cadence. Huh?
W

If you simply want to write an anti-Royalist diatribe, then why not do so
and refrain from confusing our Japanese poster?
In any case what I wrote about the Queen Mum was neither pro- nor
anti-Royalist. It was intended to show our Japanese poster that the lady
was human, a real professional, and to be respected as such. When she took
on the Chancellorship of London University she could very easily have
floated about doing nothing, achieving nothing, and benefitting nobody. If
she had, there could have been no protest and she couldn't have been
fired. So she didn't have to learn how to read plans, she didn't have to
be punctual, she didn't have to bone up on who she was going to meet and
what mattered to those individuals, she didn't have to turn up to Students
Balls and lead off the dancing, she didn't have to do any of it. But real
professionals don't take on jobs they have no intention of doing properly,
and a good measure of professionalism is doing things properly even when
the general public cannot see what you are doing. The Queen Mum did the
Chancellorship properly. She was a pro, a real trouper. THAT is why she
was liked.
It seemed to me that a Japanese person asking about pronunciation of her
family name might well be seeing the show rather than the substance. So I
told him that we also had people of substance amongst our royalty. It
should ring bells with him because he will know that his own royal family
has similar people. His Emperor does not have to be bothered about
anything or anyone, but in fact he is a hard-working and very eminent
taxonomist specialising in goby fish. Indeed so good at that profession
that he was worth inviting to the Linnean Society in London to give an
important lecture on taxonomy.
So, willers, if you are going to ejaculate then don't be so premature. You
might then be able to look at people in all parts of society by
considering whether they contribute or not; and then moving on to consider
whether they contributed because they had to or because it was a matter of
self-respect to do a proper job whether or not anybody could see it. You
can apply the same evaluation to a journeyman stonemason of a millennium
ago carving a figure to go high on a cathedral facade or a monarch
appearing in public today.
A long time ago, when I was well and truly pissed off by an oleaginous
captain of commerce, I bellowed 'Sir X you have no idea of what makes a
man important. A peasant trying 101% to be a useful peasant is a man of
honour worth crossing continents to learn from. A prince not bothering to
try more than 99% to be a useful prince is a shower of shit not worth
turning round to spit on..' Some 400 people fell into shocked silence.
Into which a prince standing behind me said 'D'accord.'
Attacking royalty for being royalty is as stupid and unjust as gassing
Jews for being Jews. Attacking individuals for not doing properly what
they have personally given their word to do is an entirely different
matter.
And finally, your ejaculation did nothing whatever to help our Japanese
guest cope with the idiosyncrasies of English pronunciation. In that
context my mention of flags did help, although you'd have to know a little
about Japanese history and culture to appreciate fully why that was so.
Don

Wooooosh...........the sound of something moving at great speed and
completely over someone's head. For the record the Q et al is much loved.
Fin

W

[Richard van Schaik]

Post by willers
Wooooosh...........the sound of something moving at great speed and
completely over someone's head. For the record the Q et al is much loved.
Fin

I do think you yourselve are responsible for all this 'hassle'. So a
'Fin' won't do. Just fight yourself for meanings and interpretations you
don't like. Maybe then your opinion will become clearer (it still is
misty to me, to say the least).

Richard

[Brian Pears]

Post by willers
Wooooosh...........the sound of something moving at great speed and
completely over someone's head. For the record the Q et al is much
loved. Fin

No, what I heard was a series of dull thuds as each of your
attempts at being clever fell flat on its face.

[James Dempster]

On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:01:11 +0200, Richard van Schaik

Post by Richard van Schaik

Post by willers
Holy Christ!!

Please elaborate as the post of Don made perfect sense to me (but I can
be wrong by lack of knowledge).
Richard

As Don has also said, I can see nothing in his post to merit such a
reaction.

To further answer the OP's question. The the Lyon in "The Lord Lyon"
is pronounced as lion.

James
James Dempster

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.

[Don Aitken]

On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 19:50:39 +0100, James Dempster

Post by James Dempster
On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:01:11 +0200, Richard van Schaik

Post by Richard van Schaik

Post by willers
Holy Christ!!

Please elaborate as the post of Don made perfect sense to me (but I can
be wrong by lack of knowledge).
Richard

As Don has also said, I can see nothing in his post to merit such a
reaction.
To further answer the OP's question. The the Lyon in "The Lord Lyon"
is pronounced as lion.

Indeed, one of them (Sir James Balfour Paul, appointed in 1890)
entitled his memoirs (sadly unpublished) "A Lyon's Tale". He was known
simply as "Lyon" to everyone, even his family, but refused to use
"Lord Lyon", which he described as a "bogus enoblement".

[John Cartmell]

Post by James Dempster
To further answer the OP's question. The the Lyon in "The Lord Lyon"
is pronounced as lion.

Though it is also possible for other families to insist that their name, even
though spelt the same, is pronounced quite differently eg:
lee-on
loin
or even - chumley*

*NB That's a joke that you may wish to investigate if you want to follow the
stupidities of some British naming conventions. ;-)

[Charani]

Post by Richard van Schaik
Please elaborate as the post of Don made perfect sense to me (but I can
be wrong by lack of knowledge).

It did, you're right.

Remember: Google is your friend ;))

[Richard van Schaik]

Post by Charani

Post by Richard van Schaik
Please elaborate as the post of Don made perfect sense to me (but I can
be wrong by lack of knowledge).

It did, you're right.
Remember: Google is your friend ;))

I do not always have time to google as much as I should (for my own
ancestry there is plenty of time, but for others as much as
I can bring together (I like to search, but do have limits (and 4
newsgroups to read))). In those cases I am grateful to those who do
supply the data and/or search direction.

Regards,
Richard

[Charani]

Post by Richard van Schaik
I do not always have time to google as much as I should (for my own
ancestry there is plenty of time, but for others as much as
I can bring together (I like to search, but do have limits (and 4
newsgroups to read)))

It's when you get to the point where you're trying to compact what
you'd do in a day into 2 hours, and what you'd do in a week into 2
days, that something has to give. In my case, it's the mails and the
posts that get deleted or marked as read. I'm subbed to 28 newsgroups
and 46 mailing lists, following 14 lines of research - and I work.
ATM, I'm working away from home so time isn't mine.

[Richard van Schaik]

Post by Charani
It's when you get to the point where you're trying to compact what
you'd do in a day into 2 hours, and what you'd do in a week into 2
days, that something has to give. In my case, it's the mails and the
posts that get deleted or marked as read. I'm subbed to 28 newsgroups
and 46 mailing lists, following 14 lines of research - and I work.
ATM, I'm working away from home so time isn't mine.

Thanks, this is a remark to get motivated again.

Regards,
Richard

[c***@gmail.com]

Don,

Thanks for your reply (and thanks too the other poeple replied to me).

Well, I actually stayed in Wales for 4 years for my study at
University and had been involved in some local communities. So, I am
almost okay in hearing most English and Wenglish speech excluding some
stronger accents of course.

However, some placenames and person's names in Britain sometimes still
confuses me. As you pointed out, they are not phonetic and have
different origins, in addition, some older families may claim older
pronunciation.
Welsh names are better to understand, because most of them are spelled
in phonitic way, though which is not the same way as English. I also
learned Welsh language there a bit and understand how to read Welsh
spelling.

So, it was good for me to ask native English speaker for the real
pronunciation during my stay in Britain, or I could hear it though
telly or radio. But I did not have opprtunities to know all
difficult sounds and the Queen Mother's maiden name was not heard at
that time.

And this time during the conversation with my friend about the Queen
Mother, the question arose.

In reply to your detailed and kind answer, I thus explained more the
background of my question.

Thanks again.

Ken

Post by Don Moody
Most people in 'britain' would be honoured that a Japanese person is
trying to improve his pronunciation of English. That is a lot more
than most British people would try to do if speaking Japanese. Even
those such as myself with decades of training in martial arts rarely
try to speak your language in your way.
There is a reason which applies to your nation and mine. Pronunciation
is not constant. It varies between social classes and between
different regions of our countries. It also varies over time. English
has an additional problem. Our spelling is not phonetic. The same
sounds can be spelled in different ways, and the same spellings can
have many different spoken sounds.
There are two extreme approaches. One is to come to Britain and
immerse yourself for several years in the speech of different regions
and classes. If that is not practicable, it may be best not to worry
about pronunciation at all and concentrate wholly on improving your
written English. If you meet British people and attempt to speak to
them your form of speech will sound strange, but so long as you do not
get excited they will understand what you are trying to say. I would
hope they would react politely and give you full marks for trying.
Which was the reaction I got from senior members of the Kodokan when I
tried to speak to them in Japanese long ago. I am sure it tortured
their ears but they were too polite to show it. Apart from being too
busy throwing me around the dojo.
For what little it is worth I would pronounce Bowes as bow, the thing
which shoots arrows. I would pronounce Lyon as lion, the animal. If
you look at the flag of Bowes-Lyon you will see why. However, just to
show the awkwardness of the British, Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother
was never addressed in person by name. She was Ma'am to her face. In
her absence she was spoken of as the Queen Mum. You may not know in
Japan that she was a keen and very accomplished ballroom dancer; and
she could read building plans better than most architects. She could
then use those plans to stipulate what length of time she would spend
going round a college in London University; and she kept to time to
the second. Woe betide any pompous jackass who tried to change the
appearance within the college or the route through it. She detected
every such falsity. In very simple terms, she was good at her job. And
far far too polite to question any attempt you made to pronounce her
family name. You really need not worry.
Don