mid 20C, E&W - mother's occupation on birth cetrificate if no father

[cecilia]

When might mother's occupation appear on a full birth certificate in
England in the years between WW2 and 1984?

In thje last few years, I have come across three GRO birth
certificates from London registration districts where the mother was
the informant and no father was named.

It's not always possible to be sure of what's in an image in a
television programme, but in each case there seemed to be, after the
mother's name, an occupation and an address - presumably place of work
since it differed from the residential address in her entry as
informant.

How normal was it to include cccupation of the mother if she was the
only parent listed?

How common was it for any parent's details to include a place of work
as well as an occupation?

[Graeme Wall]

Post by cecilia
When might mother's occupation appear on a full birth certificate in
England in the years between WW2 and 1984?
In thje last few years, I have come across three GRO birth
certificates from London registration districts where the mother was
the informant and no father was named.
It's not always possible to be sure of what's in an image in a
television programme, but in each case there seemed to be, after the
mother's name, an occupation and an address - presumably place of work
since it differed from the residential address in her entry as
informant.
How normal was it to include cccupation of the mother if she was the
only parent listed?
How common was it for any parent's details to include a place of work
as well as an occupation?

My father's birth certificate gives his father's place of work: Civil
servant (War Office), though that may be an anomaly.

[cecilia]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 09:01:51 +0000, Graeme Wall

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by cecilia
When might mother's occupation appear on a full birth certificate in
England in the years between WW2 and 1984?
In thje last few years, I have come across three GRO birth
certificates from London registration districts where the mother was
the informant and no father was named.
It's not always possible to be sure of what's in an image in a
television programme, but in each case there seemed to be, after the
mother's name, an occupation and an address - presumably place of work
since it differed from the residential address in her entry as
informant.
How normal was it to include cccupation of the mother if she was the
only parent listed?
How common was it for any parent's details to include a place of work
as well as an occupation?

My father's birth certificate gives his father's place of work: Civil
servant (War Office), though that may be an anomaly.

Interesting. Thank you [though as I was once told (though I've never
checked) that all Government employees were Civil Servants for
passport purposes etc until the early 1960s, I'd be tempted to think
that "(War Office)" was more a departmental division than an address.
Note to self: check the census occupation and occupation code for
someone I think was in the Colonial Office by 1911.]

[Peter Johnson]

Post by cecilia
Interesting. Thank you [though as I was once told (though I've never
checked) that all Government employees were Civil Servants for
passport purposes etc until the early 1960s, I'd be tempted to think
that "(War Office)" was more a departmental division than an address.
Note to self: check the census occupation and occupation code for
someone I think was in the Colonial Office by 1911.]

I've seen census entries for men with managerial positions in the Post
Office say they were Civil Servants, which they were, and sometimes
with the addition that they worked for the PO, and sometimes also
their position within the PO.

[cecilia]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 16:39:17 +0000, Peter Johnson

Post by Peter Johnson

Post by cecilia
Interesting. Thank you [though as I was once told (though I've never
checked) that all Government employees were Civil Servants for
passport purposes etc until the early 1960s, I'd be tempted to think
that "(War Office)" was more a departmental division than an address.
Note to self: check the census occupation and occupation code for
someone I think was in the Colonial Office by 1911.]

I've seen census entries for men with managerial positions in the Post
Office say they were Civil Servants, which they were, and sometimes
with the addition that they worked for the PO, and sometimes also
their position within the PO.

To amplify my previous statement - I was told was that "Civil,Servant"
covered all Government employees from diplomats to postmen. Nice to
have half of that confirmed.

[Peter Johnson]

Post by cecilia
To amplify my previous statement - I was told was that "Civil,Servant"
covered all Government employees from diplomats to postmen. Nice to
have half of that confirmed.

Anyone who is employed by the government is a civil servant. To bring
politics into it, it's one of the reasons the Tories were/are so keen
on privatisations, to reduce the number of people on the government
payroll, with jobs for life and who can't be sacked very easily.

[Charles Ellson]

On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 19:40:32 +0000, Peter Johnson

Post by Peter Johnson

Post by cecilia
To amplify my previous statement - I was told was that "Civil,Servant"
covered all Government employees from diplomats to postmen. Nice to
have half of that confirmed.

Anyone who is employed by the government is a civil servant. To bring
politics into it, it's one of the reasons the Tories were/are so keen
on privatisations, to reduce the number of people on the government
payroll, with jobs for life and who can't be sacked very easily.

A civil servant is someone employed by the Crown not the government.
Among others, those e.g. employed by Parliament are not civil
servants.
https://www.civilservant.org.uk/information-definitions.html

[Ian Goddard]

Post by Peter Johnson

Post by cecilia
To amplify my previous statement - I was told was that "Civil,Servant"
covered all Government employees from diplomats to postmen. Nice to
have half of that confirmed.

Anyone who is employed by the government is a civil servant. To bring
politics into it, it's one of the reasons the Tories were/are so keen
on privatisations, to reduce the number of people on the government
payroll, with jobs for life and who can't be sacked very easily.

To take one example, BT employees weren't civil servants. Amongst other
things they had their own pension scheme, rather better than the Civil
Service's in fact.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Peter Johnson

Post by cecilia
To amplify my previous statement - I was told was that "Civil,Servant"
covered all Government employees from diplomats to postmen.  Nice to
have half of that confirmed.

Anyone who is employed by the government is a civil servant. To bring
politics into it, it's one of the reasons the Tories were/are so keen
on privatisations, to reduce the number of people on the government
payroll, with jobs for life and who can't be sacked very easily.

To take one example, BT employees weren't civil servants.  Amongst other
things they had their own pension scheme, rather better than the Civil
Service's in fact.

They were when it was the GPO. BT is a private company.

[Charles Ellson]

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 13:09:16 +0000, Ian Goddard

Post by Ian Goddard

Post by Peter Johnson

Post by cecilia
To amplify my previous statement - I was told was that "Civil,Servant"
covered all Government employees from diplomats to postmen. Nice to
have half of that confirmed.

Anyone who is employed by the government is a civil servant. To bring
politics into it, it's one of the reasons the Tories were/are so keen
on privatisations, to reduce the number of people on the government
payroll, with jobs for life and who can't be sacked very easily.

To take one example, BT employees weren't civil servants. Amongst other
things they had their own pension scheme, rather better than the Civil
Service's in fact.

BT staff were ex British Telecommunications who were ex Post Office
Corporation who were ex GPO which was Civil Service. There were a few
years in between BT (1984) and Civil Service days (1969).

The Post Office continued the non-contributory Civil Service scheme
before changing to a contributory scheme in the early 1970s.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by cecilia
When might mother's occupation appear on a full birth certificate in
England in the years between WW2 and 1984?
In thje last few years, I have come across three GRO birth
certificates from London registration districts where the mother was
the informant and no father was named.
It's not always possible to be sure of what's in an image in a
television programme, but in each case there seemed to be, after the
mother's name, an occupation and an address - presumably place of work
since it differed from the residential address in her entry as
informant.
How normal was it to include cccupation of the mother if she was the
only parent listed?
How common was it for any parent's details to include a place of work
as well as an occupation?

My father's birth certificate gives his father's place of work: Civil
servant (War Office), though that may be an anomaly.

Or could it be that "(War Office)" was a way of indicating that the
person was not normally a government employee, but was co-opted (or some
such suitable term) for the duration, or part thereof?

[Charles Ellson]

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 00:03:14 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by cecilia
When might mother's occupation appear on a full birth certificate in
England in the years between WW2 and 1984?
In thje last few years, I have come across three GRO birth
certificates from London registration districts where the mother was
the informant and no father was named.
It's not always possible to be sure of what's in an image in a
television programme, but in each case there seemed to be, after the
mother's name, an occupation and an address - presumably place of work
since it differed from the residential address in her entry as
informant.
How normal was it to include cccupation of the mother if she was the
only parent listed?
How common was it for any parent's details to include a place of work
as well as an occupation?

My father's birth certificate gives his father's place of work: Civil
servant (War Office), though that may be an anomaly.

Or could it be that "(War Office)" was a way of indicating that the
person was not normally a government employee, but was co-opted (or some
such suitable term) for the duration, or part thereof?

A civil servant is an employee of the Crown. They can be moved up,
down and sideways within the different departments of the civil
service. Merely being "borrowed" from outwith the civil service would
not turn someone into a civil servant unless they were formally
employed. "Civil Servant (<more specific description>)" was not an
unusual description but not universal; the distinction was often not
relevant to matters outwith the person's field of employment.
In this case it might have had a bit of relevance had the child
applied for a civil service job in later years but his father was no
longer around. Even half a century ago, details of your parents'
occupations, nationality etc. were required parts of the job
application paperwork.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by cecilia
When might mother's occupation appear on a full birth certificate in
England in the years between WW2 and 1984?
 In thje last few years, I have come across three GRO birth
certificates from London registration districts where  the mother was
the informant and no father was named.
 It's not always possible to be sure of what's in an image in a
television programme, but in each case there seemed to be, after the
mother's name, an occupation and an address - presumably place of work
since it differed from the residential address in her entry as
informant.
 How normal was it to include cccupation of the mother if she was the
only parent listed?
 How common was it for any parent's details to include a place of work
as well as an occupation?

My father's birth certificate gives his father's place of work: Civil
servant (War Office), though that may be an anomaly.

Or could it be that "(War Office)" was a way of indicating that the
person was not normally a government employee, but was co-opted (or some
such suitable term) for the duration, or part thereof?

No, he was definitely a civil servant, I still have his bowler hat!
Joined the Civil Service 1909, retired 1952.