Parents and Masters

[Tony Proctor]

I came across this phrase ("Index of Parents and Masters"), and associated prefixes "p. to ..." and "p. of ...", in a document of 18th Century Freemen
of the city of Leicester.

The usage is clearly not that of present-day "parents", and appears to be related to apprenticeships.

Can someone enlighten me of whether this was an accepted usage at that time, whether how it might have differed from "master"?

Tony Proctor

[Ian Goddard]

Post by Tony Proctor
I came across this phrase ("Index of Parents and Masters"), and
associated prefixes "p. to ..." and "p. of ...", in a document of 18th
Century Freemen of the city of Leicester.
The usage is clearly not that of present-day "parents", and appears to
be related to apprenticeships.
Can someone enlighten me of whether this was an accepted usage at that
time, whether how it might have differed from "master"?

Could "parent" be used when a child was apprenticed to their own father
(or to mother if that happened)?

Ian

[Tony Proctor]

Post by Tony Proctor
I came across this phrase ("Index of Parents and Masters"), and associated prefixes "p. to ..." and "p. of ...", in a document of 18th Century
Freemen of the city of Leicester.
The usage is clearly not that of present-day "parents", and appears to be related to apprenticeships.
Can someone enlighten me of whether this was an accepted usage at that time, whether how it might have differed from "master"?

Could "parent" be used when a child was apprenticed to their own father (or to mother if that happened)?
Ian

There was no surname correspondence, Ian. That's why I was confused by the usage.

Tony

[Ian Goddard]

Post by Tony Proctor

Post by Ian Goddard

Post by Tony Proctor
I came across this phrase ("Index of Parents and Masters"), and
associated prefixes "p. to ..." and "p. of ...", in a document of
18th Century Freemen of the city of Leicester.
The usage is clearly not that of present-day "parents", and appears
to be related to apprenticeships.
Can someone enlighten me of whether this was an accepted usage at
that time, whether how it might have differed from "master"?

Could "parent" be used when a child was apprenticed to their own
father (or to mother if that happened)?
Ian

There was no surname correspondence, Ian. That's why I was confused by the usage.
Tony

What date? If it's early enough it could be god-parents. See some of
Redmonds' writings, especial "Christian names in genealogy" on that.

Ian

[Tony Proctor]

Post by Tony Proctor

Post by Tony Proctor
I came across this phrase ("Index of Parents and Masters"), and associated prefixes "p. to ..." and "p. of ...", in a document of 18th Century
Freemen of the city of Leicester.
The usage is clearly not that of present-day "parents", and appears to be related to apprenticeships.
Can someone enlighten me of whether this was an accepted usage at that time, whether how it might have differed from "master"?

Could "parent" be used when a child was apprenticed to their own father (or to mother if that happened)?
Ian

There was no surname correspondence, Ian. That's why I was confused by the usage.
Tony

What date?  If it's early enough it could be god-parents.  See some of Redmonds' writings, especial "Christian names in genealogy" on that.
Ian

The source was "Freemen of the City" [Leicester], vol. 1 1196-1770; and ... vol. 2, 1770-1930.

There are separate lists in this source, titled "Index of Parents and Masters", and "Index of Freemen and Apprentices", and many abbreviated
references "p. to ..." and "p. of ..." in both lists.

For instance, "William Hammond, s. of Wm. of Nottingham, Inkeeper, p. to Thos. Turney of the same, upholsterer from 1st inst". Or, "William Fellows,
s. of Wm. of Enderby, tailor, p. to Benj. Hammond of the same, comber from March last".

Tony

[john]

Post by Tony Proctor

Post by Ian Goddard

Post by Tony Proctor
I came across this phrase ("Index of Parents and Masters"), and
associated prefixes "p. to ..." and "p. of ...", in a document of
18th Century Freemen of the city of Leicester.
The usage is clearly not that of present-day "parents", and appears
to be related to apprenticeships.
Can someone enlighten me of whether this was an accepted usage at
that time, whether how it might have differed from "master"?

Could "parent" be used when a child was apprenticed to their own
father (or to mother if that happened)?
Ian

There was no surname correspondence, Ian. That's why I was confused by the usage.
Tony

see
http://www.theoriginalrecord.com/database/search/decade/173
Apprentices registered at Leicester (1728-1731)
Apprenticeship indentures and clerks' articles were subject to a 6d or
12d per pound stamp duty: the registers of the payments usually give the
master's trade, address, and occupation, and the apprentice's father's
name and address, as well as details of the date and length of the
apprenticeship. There are central registers for collections of the stamp
duty in London, as well as returns from collectors in the provinces.
These collectors generally received duty just from their own county, but
sometimes from further afield.

see also

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apprenticeship#Early_history

The explanation About UK, Register of Duties Paid for Apprentices'
Indentures, 1710-1811
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/apprenticedutyir1/

There is brief mention of the role of parents in Apprenticeship and Training
in Premodern England http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/22515/1/2207Wallis.pdf

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by Tony Proctor
I came across this phrase ("Index of Parents and Masters"), and
associated prefixes "p. to ..." and "p. of ...", in a document of 18th
Century Freemen of the city of Leicester.
The usage is clearly not that of present-day "parents", and appears to
be related to apprenticeships.
Can someone enlighten me of whether this was an accepted usage at that
time, whether how it might have differed from "master"?
Tony Proctor

Could it be something like "sponsor"? In something like the Masons,
maybe one is the person who recommends the candidate be accepted into
the brotherhood, but not necessarily his mentor/instructor in his chosen
trade/profession. The sponsor might not necessarily be skilled in the
trade, but just saying the candidate is of good character.

[Kate]

"Tony Proctor" wrote in message news:q8q1mh$74m$***@gioia.aioe.org...

I came across this phrase ("Index of Parents and Masters"), and associated
prefixes "p. to ..." and "p. of ...", in a document of 18th Century Freemen
of the city of Leicester.

The usage is clearly not that of present-day "parents", and appears to be
related to apprenticeships.

Can someone enlighten me of whether this was an accepted usage at that time,
whether how it might have differed from "master"?

Tony Proctor

I found the following on Google

Verb
(third-person singular simple present prentices, present participle
prenticing, simple past and past participle prenticed)
(obsolete) To apprentice.
Origin
An old (Middle English) aphetic form of apprentice; that is, a form which
lost the unstressed initial vowel a and reduced the initial double pp to a
single p.

Regards

Kate
Sydney, Australia

[Tony Proctor]

Post by Tony Proctor
I came across this phrase ("Index of Parents and Masters"), and associated prefixes "p. to ..." and "p. of ...", in a document of 18th Century Freemen
of the city of Leicester.
The usage is clearly not that of present-day "parents", and appears to be related to apprenticeships.
Can someone enlighten me of whether this was an accepted usage at that time, whether how it might have differed from "master"?
Tony Proctor
I found the following on Google
Verb
(third-person singular simple present prentices, present participle prenticing, simple past and past participle prenticed)
(obsolete) To apprentice.
Origin
An old (Middle English) aphetic form of apprentice; that is, a form which lost the unstressed initial vowel a and reduced the initial double pp to a
single p.
Regards
Kate
Sydney, Australia

You didn't provide a link to your find, Kate, or say which word you were actually looking up. However, I think I found the same information under
https://www.yourdictionary.com/prentice.

So, I believe you were saying the the "p" stood for "prentice" rather than to "parent". I hadn't considered this, and was already steered down the
"parent" route by another researcher.

I think you have solved the problem so many thanks for your input, Kate.

Tony

[Kate]

Post by Tony Proctor
I came across this phrase ("Index of Parents and Masters"), and associated
prefixes "p. to ..." and "p. of ...", in a document of 18th Century Freemen
of the city of Leicester.
The usage is clearly not that of present-day "parents", and appears to be
related to apprenticeships.
Can someone enlighten me of whether this was an accepted usage at that
time, whether how it might have differed from "master"?
Tony Proctor
I found the following on Google
Verb
(third-person singular simple present prentices, present participle
prenticing, simple past and past participle prenticed)
(obsolete) To apprentice.
Origin
An old (Middle English) aphetic form of apprentice; that is, a form which
lost the unstressed initial vowel a and reduced the initial double pp to a
single p.
Regards
Kate
Sydney, Australia

You didn't provide a link to your find, Kate, or say which word you were
actually looking up. However, I think I found the same information under
https://www.yourdictionary.com/prentice.

So, I believe you were saying the the "p" stood for "prentice" rather than
to "parent". I hadn't considered this, and was already steered down the
"parent" route by another researcher.

I think you have solved the problem so many thanks for your input, Kate.

Tony

I should have supplied the link, sorry about that but you have found the one
I used.

Regards

Kate
Sydney, Australia